I really hate when Democrats seize on a national outrage and try to legislate around it just to keep those fires of outrage going. Which is what this sounds like to me.
Personally, I didn’t get the big uproar over Eduardo Saverin renouncing his U.S. citizenship to become a citizen of Malaysia or Singapore or whatever the hell it was. Especially after he said he would pay all the U.S. taxes he owes. I mean, I’m as big a tax-loving liberal as you will find, but if some rich dude wants to live in Singapore full time and not America, that’s his business.
According to Wikipedia, Singapore does not recognize dual citizenship. I dunno, it’s Wikipedia, I’m not an immigration attorney, I’ll assume that’s correct until informed otherwise. Also, as I recall Saverin was a naturalized U.S. citizen anyway, born in Brazil or Venezuela or some place like that. It’s not like he grew up with baseball, apple pie and the stars-and-stripes along with his mama’s milk. Whatever, dude.
It’s stupid, this whole American exceptionalism thing. America is a great place but it’s not perfect and there are a lot of great places out there. Norway is awesome. I call it the Promised Land. I’d live there in a heartbeat. Please, Norway, call me. I’ll answer.
Would I renounce my American citizenship to do so? Probably not. My American-ness is as much a part of me as my hair color and my love of dogs and cats and growing up in the ’70s in Southern California and everything else. It’s part of who I am, it’s my cultural identity. But for someone not born here, I can see it not being that big of a deal.
So I really hate it when Democrats climb on board the Republican “America! Fuck Yeah!” bandwagon. That’s a conservative worldview, not a liberal one.
And while I hate it when people throw around comparisons to the Soviet Union and whatnot, and much as it pains me to say this, the Republicans have a really good point on this legislation the Dems are throwing out there. Again, I haven’t read the bill, so I’m just reacting to what people are saying about it, but banning people from ever entering the country again? Seriously? Hell, yeah, that’s what the Soviets did.
I was in the then-Soviet Union in 1982 as part of a college trip. I remember our class got to have a Q&A with Communist Party officials at some official “meet the Americans” gathering. And the first question we asked was, “why won’t you let your citizens leave the country.” Because for you kids who don’t remember, back then we were always hearing about ballet stars and circus performers defecting through great acts of derring-do, you just couldn’t leave Moscow and move to America without causing an international hullabaloo. And what the Soviets told us was, “we have devoted tremendous resources to educating and caring for our citizens and that investment is lost when they emigrate to another country.”
And dang it but that sounds exactly like the argument liberal bloggers were making last week when they went after Saverin. Here he created Facebook using the servers at Harvard and taking advantage of the taxpayer-funded stability and resources of this country and now he’s cashing in and leaving and not paying us what he owes us.
Really? Again, I’m not an expert on this but if you’re emigrating and taking your assets with you, don’t you already pay some kind of “exit tax”? And isn’t money earned in the United States already taxed by the United States, regardless of the earner’s citizenship? Isn’t that how it works? That’s how I read it.
Please don’t make me agree with that fucking sack of lard Rush Limbaugh on this, Democrats. Tell me what I’m missing because on this issue at least, you’ve lost me.
And Republicans: enough with the hissy fits. Aren’t you guys the ones always threatening to “Go Galt” and leave the country over every imagined step towards Socialism/Fascism/Multiculteralism/Pacifism/NotBeingADoucheIsm? Go, then. Buh-bye. You’re still going to have to pay your damn taxes. Now you’ll have to pay it to two countries. Smart move.
From what I’ve seen, he was born in Brazil. Had he been born in Venezuela, the baseball fan in me knows he would have grown up with baseball. Apple pie? I have no idea. What can I say, I’m a Reds fan and the great Davey Concepcion is a native of Venezuela.
I agree, BTW, and I was surprised when I read (albeit briefly) John Boehner being seemingly reasonable on the question, apparently noting that we have some law on the books already (perhaps the one that had you referring to the guy saying he’d pay what’s due) and if it was sufficient, he’d support a change in the law. Egads. I think you’re right it shows we’re likely on the wrong side of the question.
It was grandstanding. Democrats should never do it, we’re really bad at it.
This must be linked
Ha ha ha. Knew the song from Team America of course but never saw that take on it. Bed Bath & Beyond cracked me up.
Just be glad that you’re not George Tierney of Greenville, South Carolina. It would be a crying shame to have that name right now.
WOWZAH. This is hilarious.
Honestly, I have banned maybe 5 people in my internet career but all of them should be sending me thank you letters because I saved them from looking like bigger douchebags than they already were.
Not until that Sandra Fluke thing did I realize that all of them are men. Are there female trolls? I haven’t met one yet.
Sometimes I troll for shits and giggles on Slate.com. But even then I have enough sense to do it anonymously. (And of course, I’d NEVER troll on your site Beale. This is the real me here.)
LOLZ
Southern Beale:
Jingoism aside (as if we could ever discount its impact on politics) the fella who wrote this:
http://pandodaily.com/2012/05/12/what-eduardo-saverin-owes-america-hint-nearly-everything/
seems to think that Saverin is an ungrateful prick (pretty much my take on the guy, as well). He had lawyers advising him on this, if after paying them some whopping fees for their “counsell” he STILL put his dick in the wringer, well that’s HIS problem.
My question is this; why did he ever become a U.S. citizen? Was it so he could BECOME rich? If that was the case, well, fuck him–he was perpetrating a fraud.
My question is this; why did he ever become a U.S. citizen?
Dunno but we had a conversation about this on another thread, there are lots of reasons to do so … residency requirements are a pain in the ass, there’s border crossing convenience, and maybe he really did want to have some U.S. civil rights like voting etc. I think, actually, the guy was ALREADY rich, wasn’t he? I mean, I’m going by the freaking movie here, so hey, don’t sue me if I’m wrong, but didn’t his dad bankroll the initial startup of Facebook? Or do I have that wrong?
I cannot believe someone would ask that question. Saverin became an American because his parents moved here. He was eleven, I think. Not many of us making global decisions at that age. Good grief. Moreover, it’s no one’s business but his whether he wants to remain a US citizen.
SB likes Norway. I like France. I’d love to be French. Yes, I’d renounce my Merkin citizenship to do it. I love a place where the workers will burn the place down if the rich idiots screw with them. Too bad so many Americans have lost that sort of courage. I’m also a huge fan of universal healthcare and fast trains. Again, too bad Americans have lost that sort of courage.
As for the America, Fuck Yeah! crowd, let me remind you all that Jesus wasn’t born here, no matter what you hear on the radio.
Well now, back down, cowboy. It was a legitimate question. We are not Afficionados On All That Is Eduardo Saverin over here. I really had no clue about the guy’s life story pre-The Social Network. Nor did I care.
I can’t say I really cared either, but I was willing to at least look at wikipedia before going all strident. Not that I’m above all that. Seriously. Who doesn’t at least look at wikipedia before blasting someone?
Yes but it’s WIKIPEDIA. Not a trustworthy source.
(And to be fair I did look at Wikipedia …)
Y’know, criticize the guy all you want, he may be a douchbag, I have no idea, don’t know the guy, never met him. Free country, think of him what you want. I just think passing legislation about it is exploitive and stupid.
“And what the Soviets told us was, “we have devoted tremendous resources to educating and caring for our citizens and that investment is lost when they emigrate to another country.”
And dang it but that sounds exactly like the argument liberal bloggers were making last week when they went after Saverin.
excellent point.
Southern Beale:
Thank you for stepping in, I was out drinking. Now I’m back, I think I can handle things without saying, “fuck”, more than a half dozen times. {;>)
R Manhammer:
“Saverin became an American because his parents moved here. He was eleven, I think.”
That assertion is not supported by the facts, afaia.
According to this:
“The Brazil-born 30-year-old became a U.S. citizen in 1998 but has lived in Singapore since 2009…”
(source: http://abcnews.go.com/Technology/wireStory/facebooks-saverin-dumps-us-singapore-16348315)
I do not know whether his parents are, or ever were, U.S. citizens. I do know that whether they were or not, in order to become a citizen he would have had to jump through the same hoops as any other teen-ager who was not BORN in the U.S. of parents who were, at least one of them, U.S. citizens at the time of his birth.
I don’t know why, or by what mechanism, he became a citizen of the U.S. I do know that his having lived in Singapore for two to three years, prior to renouncing his U.S. citizenship–just before an IPO that made him VERY rich, makes his protestations that this is NOT about his saving money on taxes ring hollow.
“I’d love to be French. Yes, I’d renounce my Merkin citizenship to do it.”
Then why have you not done so?
“I love a place where the workers will burn the place down if the rich idiots screw with them.”
Hmm, you’re a fan of anarchy?
“Too bad so many Americans have lost that sort of courage.”
Those “Americans” you’re speaking of are overwhelmingly congressional reptilicans.”
“I’m also a huge fan of universal healthcare and fast trains. Again, too bad Americans have lost that sort of courage.”
Again, you can lay the blame for those items at the feet of the GOP.
I, BTW, am not hardly one of those, “… America, Fuck Yeah! crowd,”
As for, “let me remind you all that Jesus wasn’t born here, no matter what you hear on the radio.”
I don’t listen to talk radio and I’m an atheist so whether JESUS was born or not I don’t believe in GOD, the KKKristian one or any other.
Ah, crap, I almost forgot, Fuck, fuck, fuck, fuck, fuck, fuck.
That’s not true. I don’t know what the residency requirements are in Singapore but I’m sure you have to live in the country for a few years before getting it.
SIGH. You’re hopeless.
Here, let me help with some facts:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eduardo_Saverin
SB,
I agree with you that the proposed legislation is a bad idea. Tightening up on dual citizenship rules would help. What I don’t understand is what he would pay even as a non-citizen on the capital gain for the stock.
The argument made by the Soviet official about “we have devoted tremendous resources to educating and caring for our citizens and that investment is lost when they emigrate to another country” ought to warm the heart of any contemporary American member of the left. The dancer, the acrobat, the writer, the citizen owes everything to the state. There is no recognition of the hard work of the individual or the intellectual effort that they contribute.
This is the ultimate logic of socialism, people are nothing more than property of the society since everything that each person achieves is directly attributable to the society and nothing {call it ‘surplus value’ or ‘profit’} belongs to the individual . For example, when all economic activity is subject to government regulation because it has some impact on other members of society, then we are well on the way to that sort of society where there is no room for individual rights.
R. Manhammer,
“I love a place where the workers will burn the place down if the rich idiots screw with them.”
Because the “rich idiots” are the ones that suffer from such violence? Right!!!! I suggest you google “The Terror” and “Paris Commune” to see who really suffers when the French peasants listen to their intellectuals and revolt.
“I’m also a huge fan of universal healthcare and fast trains.”
I will skip the health care argument and just point out that after WWII it was federal regulations that restricted the speed of passenger trains and undermined high speed rail. In an article in the Winter 1994 issue of the Wilson Quarterly it is observed that the railroads had plans for very high speed passenger service. However:
“But the ICC effectively killed this idea before a single train left the station. In 1947, the agency imposed a 79-MPHli mit on all
passenger trains not equipped with special signaling devices in their locomotive cabs. The rule, which went into effect in 1950, further restricted trains running on lines without other trackside signals to 60 MPH.
Federal tax policy was another blow to high speed passenger rail.
“Another obstacle placed in the path of the streamliner was the 15 percent federal excise tax on common-carrier tickets. Originally
established as a wartime measure to discourage civilian travel, the tax was continued after the end of the war, and unhappily it succeeded all too well in its original purpose. “The additional 15 percent added to
the cost of rail transportation has often been the deciding factor in the choice of the private automobile over the rail service,” regulatory
commissioners said in a 1954 report.”
And then there were state laws and overly favorable union rules.
“Passenger trains were further burdened by full-crew laws passed by many state legislatures at the behest of organized labor. These
laws required a .fireman aboard every diesel passenger train, even though there was nothing for the fireman to fire. Both the fireman and
the engineer were paid under “basic day” rates unchanged since 1919. One hundred miles constituted a basic day for the crew. As a consequence, crews were changed a total of eight times on a passenger train running the 1,000 miles between Chicago and Denver in 16 and
one-half hours, and the crews shared a total of 10 days’ pay.”
The result was predictable:
“High operating costs were a greater problem than loss of patronage: Through 1955, the number of passengers carried on an average
intercity train was only slightly less than the average carried in 1939. But the inflationary spiral had a deadly outcome. Capital that should have gone for improved equipment and faster service was dissipated in wages and taxes.”
The final blow was the massive federal investment in the interstate highway system. That gave automobile travel an economic advantage over rail travel that would remain to the present.
I apologize for the length of this comment but I wanted to emphasize that our lack of high speed rail is not the result of a lack of greed on the part of corporate America but the result of remarkably short-sighted federal and state government policies that made passenger rail travel economically unsustainable.
And, to go back to a previous discussion with SB, this is exactly the sort of regulation that reflects the dangers of excessive government meddling especially when the government decides to pick winners and losers for consumers.
I’m not going to be able to read your entire tome — brevity is the soul of wit, Mark — but I had to call you on this utter BS:
That’s just bullshit. Laughable bullshit, actually. High speed rail was killed when Standard Oil, Phillips Petroleum, General Motors, and Firestone Tire colluded to destroy America’s public rail systems. They bought up urban rail and trolley systems and killed them, replacing them with passenger buses. And they used their tremendous power over Congress to get tax policies encouraging individual vehicle ownership and massive taxpayer funded infrastructure projects like the federal highway system — roads that helped them sell their product. And then they invested in huge propaganda campaigns telling us that the quintessentially American way was the family car, the family road trip, getting your kicks on Route 66. And everything was fine and dandy until the oil shock of 1973 when people woke up and said, “WTF were we thinking.” Oops, too late.
Anyway, Mark I know you feel it’s your duty to follow me around the internet and deposit right wing talking points in my wake, but these are not crumbs anyone seems to be following. You know, we get it: government bad, free markets good. Whatever. You sing the same song, but you’re a solo voice over here.
How’s that for a metaphor mash-up?
I would also add that it wasn’t the FRENCH federal regulations that did the dirty deed. Regardless of which version you subscribe to, it was Americans doing it to Americans all the way down.
Also, too, Haymarket Massacre. But, feel free to salute your Galtian Overlords as they whiz by in their limos. They like that kind of thing from us untermenschen..
Southern Beale:
“That’s not true. I don’t know what the residency requirements are in Singapore but I’m sure you have to live in the country for a few years before getting it.”
According to the several news stories I looked at he is NOT becoming a citizen of Singapore. He is just renouncing his U.S. citizenship, while retaining his Brazilian citizenship.
(source: http://www.businessweek.com/news/2012-05-11/facebook-co-founder-may-gain-choosing-singapore-over-u-dot-s-dot)
I do not know if Saverin has applied for Singaporean permanent resident status. The rules for that and citizenship application are here:
http://www.ica.gov.sg/page.aspx?pageid=151
and
http://www.ica.gov.sg/page.aspx?pageid=132#eligibility
I’m sure that being a bazillionaire will allow him to skirt this requirement or permanent residency:
“Under the Enlistment Act, all male Singapore Citizens and Permanent Residents, unless exempted, are liable to register for National Service (NS). Following the completion of full-time NS, they will be required to serve up to 40 days of Operationally Ready National Service (ORNS) per year for the duration of their ORNS training cycle till the age of 50 years (for officers) or 40 years (for other ranks).”
if he is/will be seeking PRS in Singapore.
He sounds, to me, pretty much the opportunistic fuckbag.
Ah well I hadn’t read that.
Well, still, he may be an opportunistic fuckbag but so the hell what? So what if he moved to the U.S. to make money? Isn’t that what people have always done?
We’re an empire in decline. Rats leaving the sinking ship: shocker. People like Mark may claim that it’s taxes causing this, like if you wave a magic wand and eliminate all taxes the rich assholes all come running back. I don’t buy that. I find it hard to believe that a person whose personal wealth is a bazillion dollars would even notice a few million in taxes. But seriously, you’d rather live in Singapore, then GO. Not my choice, but whatever.
“This is the ultimate logic of TOTALITARIAN COMMUNISM, people are nothing more than property of the society since everything that each person achieves is directly attributable to the society and nothing {call it ‘surplus value’ or ‘profit’} belongs to the individual .’
There, fixed that for you.
“The final blow was the massive federal investment in the interstate highway system.”
The Interstate Highway system was, much like the internet, a U.S. military/national security initiative intended to facilitate movement of troops and materiel in a timely fashion over a regulated network of roads with NATIONAL standards–sorta like that there NAZI autobahn. The oil and auto barons were able to get onboard without spending the money to build the roads–win, win.
Also let me add, the Interstate Highway System did not magically spring forth during the Eisenhower Administration but was the result of a decades-long effort to standardize our roads going back to the 1920s. Crappy roads were a real drag on auto sales in this country and the U.S. highway system was initiated not just at the behest of Big Bad Government but at the urging and with the participation of auto manufacturers and oil companies. It was a partnership.
I read a fascinating book on the topic, The Big Roads: The Untold Story of the Engineers, Visionaries, and Trailblazers Who Created the American Superhighways by Earl Swift. I bet your local library has a copy.
“I’m not going to be able to read your entire tome — brevity is the soul of wit, Mark.”-SB
Just an observation, sorry to keep straying from the topic, but I am observing these long essays from Conservatives on a number of politically oriented blogs I follow. Seems to be some sort of coordinated strategy. Not only length but numerous references to learned authors or Foreign Policy magazine or something. Sort of the Jehovah’s Witness model of proselytizing. Trench warfare. Winning by attrition. Be prepared, it will get worse before it gets better.
P.S. I kinda like that Paris Commune deal. Mannheimer and I would get along. Tell the French they can’t smoke in restaurants they shut the whole fucking country down. Tip O’ The Hat to Anarchy.
Indeed, I’ve noticed the same. You’d almost think Karl Rove planned it. Oh, woopsies, someone leaked the handbook. And honestly, anyone who spends as much time on the internet as Mark does cannot have another life. Meanwhile, I’m still waiting for my check from George Soros.
Can’t imagine it’s a good use of anyone’s time, but whatever. This is also why I try to ignore the trolls because their entire point is to distract and disrupt the spread of liberal ideas. So one lone voice screaming “socialism is evul!” looks silly when nested in a long thread of reasoned discussion.
It was indeed a surprise acion by the two Democrats, although they did say they would only follow thru if the reason was tax- related, like, avoiding paying capital gains tax.
My question is, how would they even know what someone’s motivation is? It’s very Big Brother-ish to me.
oooops… * action *
Anarchy is fine so long as the anarchists are putting their own lives and property on the line. What usually winds up happening with anarchy is that the destructive tendencies of a selfish few disrupt the lives of everyone–except. usually, those of their putative enemies. Then when the system is destroyed it is superseded by another authroitarian system, Systems are, by definition, authoritarian. The problem is not authority but authority without responsibility or oversight,
SB,
The specific points about government policy and regulations damaging passenger rail are not mine. Rather they are the view of Mark Reutter, author of the Wilson Quarterly article I cited, editor of ‘Railroad History’ for eight years and a writer for the Progressive Policy Institute and ‘The Nation.’ In other words, he is no apologist for vulture capitalism but an actual expert on railroads.
And he is not alone in this analysis. I suggest that you read Robert Caro’s ‘The Power Broker: Robert Moses and the Fall of New York City’ for a highly detailed study of how ‘government’ policies damaged railroads in favor of automobiles.
To be sure, the auto industry and the oil industry supported the shift from railroads to highways. But then, so did the auto workers union and the construction workers unions. And the steel workers union.
In other words, it was government at the federal and state levels that made the crucial decisions that blocked the development of high speed rail in order to pursue highways and air travel. Some of the reasons were understandable as long term policy choices. Some were based on special interests.
But it is ridiculous to suggest, as R. Manhammer does, that Americans lack the courage to build high speed rail. Rather we should take a longer term view of public policy.
Democommie,
I never said that the interstate highway system was a bad idea. Neither does Reutter {and he writes for ‘The Nation’ so presumably he is acceptable to you}. Rather the degree of government subsidies for automobiles were a key factor in encouraging people to drive rather than ride the train. At the same time, the federal government and state and local governments were also subsidizing air travel, which also undermined the profitability of the railroads.
I find it amusing that quoting from a writer for the Progressive Policy Institute, http://progressivepolicy.org/about-us/who-we-are, qualifies as right wing talking points. But then the default seems to be wild exaggerations as to the nature of my comments. I have never blamed taxes and regulation for all our economic problems. Not that facts seem to matter to some of the closed minds around here
Right and the points I made are not mine but the views of various different authors and works, including Earl Swift’s “Big Roads” book I linked to earlier, Bradford Snell’s 1974 U.S. Senate inquiry, and the movie “Who Framed Roger Rabbit.”
Again, brevity is the soul of wit. I got as far as your comment’s first graf.
SB,
We agree that the auto and oil,companies played a role in the decline of passenger rail. What escapes me is your refusal to consider how regulations on the speed of passenger trains, archaic union rules and government subsidies to competitors are not equal, if not greater factors. Other than it seems to contradict your belief that if a conservative says something. it must be wrong. Which would be simple and you, unlike democommie, are not simple.
You’re just trying to get the last word again, right?
No. I was just pointing out that in this case, it is the conservative who is listening to and accepting liberal opinion and information in order to reach a conclusion and the open-minded liberal who is refusing to accept information and opinion from a credible liberal source rather than admit that the conservative is correct.
I never claimed to be open minded. I did state that I didn’t have time your read your thread-killing Complete Works Of Mark Rogers On The History Of Transportation Policy In The United States As Told To Ayn Rand By Howard Roark.
I’m ignoring you now. Thanks for playing.
What escapes me is your insistence on cluttering up threads with distracting off-topic rabbit trails. How you got inspired to write a thesis on the history of transportation policy when I was writing about tax issues related to citizenship I have no clue. No, scratch that, I was writing about a left-wing hissy fit over tax issues and citizenship. Hmm.
You do this a lot, I’ve called you on it before, and while it’s been an amusing distraction I can’t play along because unlike you, apparently, I have to work for a living and George Soros isn’t forthcoming with the checks. As I mentioned, I didn’t have time to read your magnum opus, neither Volume One nor Volume Two. So your claims that I refuse to consider anything that may relate to the history of American mass transit is disingenuous.
Marx and Engels Collected Works
http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/cw/index.htm
This is the listing of the Marx/Engels Collected Works (MECW), as compiled and printed by Progress Publishers of the Soviet Union in collaboration with Lawrence & Wishart (London) and International Publishers (New York), starting in 1975 and completed in 2005. Students and scholars should be aware that we have only transcribed most of the first 10 volumes, up to 1851 plus occasional pieces from elsewhere of the Marx Engels Collected Works and that there are 50 volumes in all.
If I cite this collection is 50 volumes enough for a win?
@democommie
“the destructive tendencies of a selfish few disrupt the lives of everyone–”
Isn’t that pretty much what we complain about on a regular basis?
@democommie
“the destructive tendencies of a selfish few disrupt the lives of everyone–”
@Randy
Isn’t that pretty much what we complain about on a regular basis?
Nice point. I think, if I can project a bit of my own onto the Occupy Movement, that’s what people are largely complaining about: The destructive tendency of the 1% to not just disrupt, but outright devastate the lives of just about everyone else.
The jibe about anarchists is a distractor. Anarchists haven’t been a significant force in US politics since Emma Goldman and the assassination of William McKinley. The problem with anarchists is that they are hard to organize (that’s humor). The Koch Brothers, Bob Perry, Harold Simmons, T. Boone Pickens, and so many other obscenely wealthy donators are an everyday event in our politics; thank you, Citizens United.
Part of the problem, as has been written elsewhere, is that the 1% do not live in the same world as the rest of us. They live in gated communities, patroled by private security. Those in fire-prone areas like Los Angeles have their private fire protection. They take the private plane from the private airport. They belong to exclusive country clubs. Their kids go to private schools. When they need surgery they go to the private luxury wing of the best hospitals. In short: they inhabit a special world that is wholly different and separate from the world the rest of us occupy. They are not vested in the same America the rest of us inhabit, and therefore do not care about things like schools and police protection and public community centers and public libraries because they don’t use these facilities and services. They are not part of the community. They’ve created their own alternate community. So it’s easy to be cavalier about it when you are separated from it. We might as well live in a foreign country.
Randy:
Yes, it is what we complain about most of the time. The problem is that violent anarchy (that is, criminal actions lacking state sanction) only serves the ends of the few who are pissed off and the few who goaded them into breaking the law so that they can come down harder on all.