2nd Amendment Heroes, Husband & Wife Edition

I’m still on vacation but as always you Dear Readers are never far from my mind. In light of the fact that 9-year-olds are firing Uzis and the media has dredged up every gun loon in America to talk about how it’s perfectly safe, normal, admirable, advisable, etc. for them to do so, I thought this dispatch from the world of the Safest Most Responsible Evah might be in order:

Gerald Hitchler, 76, and his wife, Susan, 67, who have a second home in Door County, visited the fun park and Gerald apparently left a .380-caliber Ruger in a brown holster on the floor of the restroom. A customer found the gun and turned it in to the owner, who in turn contacted the Door County Sheriff’s Department.

A sheriff’s incident report noted the gun was loaded with seven rounds of ammunition. The serial number was traced to the owner, and the report indicated Gerald was shocked when he was called and learned they had the weapon. The case was initially closed and Gerald was supposed to pick it up this week.

Sheriff’s Investigator Connie Schuster confirmed they received additional information and the case has been reopened showing Gerald’s wife, Susan Hitchler, also left a semiautomatic loaded handgun in a stall of the women’s restroom on March 19 at Elmbrook Church in Brookfield.

Isn’t that special. But wait, there’s more:

Gerald was contacted by phone and asked if he realized the gun was missing and he responded, “not really.”

He said the incident was “funny, accidental” and “not a big deal.”

Well I guess it is for him, seeing as how he and his wife routinely leave loaded guns lying around in public places because Freedom.

And the best part:

The Hitchlers have concealed carry permits, and it appears each has a similar weapon.

In the world of gun-crazy America, leaving your loaded guns behind while still calling yourself the “safest, most responsible evah” is perfectly normal. As is having children firing machine guns, etc. etc. Sickos.

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38 Comments

Filed under gun control

38 responses to “2nd Amendment Heroes, Husband & Wife Edition

  1. ThresherK

    He said the incident was “funny, accidental” and “not a big deal.”

    If this were “Pulp Fiction”, maybe. But that movie has “fiction” right in the title.

  2. “He said the incident was “funny, accidental” and “not a big deal.””

    John Edward, Ms. Clio and Sylvia Brown all report that Charles Vacca made an indentical comment only moments after “crossing over”. Ms. Browns account is, btw, eyewitness.

  3. I think this is following the “no harm, no foul” theory of gun responsibility. As long as nobody was killed or seriously injured, you can laugh the whole thing off and maintain your status as a responsible gun owner.

    • Kathleen

      As long as you’re white. I would imagine people of “hue” would not be granted such dispensation. In fact, I would shudder to think what would happen to them.

      BTW, I overheard a gentleman call a shooting range and ask if he could bring his 8 year old grandson for lessons.

  4. Jim 'Prup' Benton

    Something — like maybe a few thousand mystery stories read over a lifetime — makes me very suspicious about this one. Repetitive absent-mindedness? Maybe. Or is it that these are handy places to stash guns for later pick-up. by themselves or even by a buyer? The church case seems particularly worth looking into — are they actually members, are they politically aligned with the church or opposed to it, etc?

    It could be merely a case of two elderly people who are equally forgetful — ferchrisakes it happens — and I had a point to make, if only…

    But, no, I am not at all surprised the police reopened the case once the second gun was found and I think I will set a Google news alert for those names and — was it Wisconsin this happened in, the story is fuzzy? This is one time for “The Rest of the Story.”

    • This is one case where my bullshit meter didn’t go off. Old people and guns, about par for the course.

      • Jim 'Prup' Benton

        As an old person myself — with a lifelong history of absent mindedness even in my youth (if I ever had one, sometimes it seems not), I know what you mean, and I might have agreed with you until I read that bit about the gun being fully loaded and the safety catch off. This may be nothing more than what it appears, probably isn’t, but I DO understand why the police re-opened the case.

  5. Jim 'Prup' Benton

    I did a little digging, and I hope — and assume — the police are doing a better job. The church — even though it is an evangelical megachurch — had to file a restraining order against a member. Here’s THAT story from the local TV station,
    Elmbrook Church said it filed a restraining order against a former member out of fear for the safety of parishioners.
    The order stemmed from an incident earlier this month when Bill King showed up at Elmbrook Church speaking out against one of the pastors and the church’s allowance of women to participate in conducting services.

    Meanwhile, the original story has, even if you ignore that, several fascinating points about guns in Wisconsin. Again from WISN:

    According to the criminal complaint–a bible study group was in a nearby room and the young girls in the class would have had access to the gun if they had used that restroom stall.

    Schimel said that’s most concerning to him in this case.

    “It’s a small gun. They could almost look toyish to someone,” Schimel said.

    Hitchler didn’t break any laws when she brought her gun onto the property at Elmbrook Church since there are no restrictions on firearms on the property.

    “When you put the magazine in and release it, it does have a safety feature, and we make sure someone coming through our program really knows the ins and outs of a firearm,” said Brian Dorow, of Waukesha County Technical College.

    But Hitchler’s gun had no safety feature and was fully loaded, which means it could have gone off if someone pulled the trigger.

    The woman reportedly told an officer she, “couldn’t believe she had done this.”

    The District Attorney’s Office told WISN 12 Mews despite the misdemeanor charge, Hitchler will still be able to legally own a gun.

    ["Mews" is strictly 'sic' -- my cats insisted I make that point.]

    Again, stay tuned for the sounds of further shoes dropping.

  6. Jim 'Prup' Benton

    And have to give credit to the local gun rights group for being among the first to condemn her carelessness.

    “Nik Clark of the Wisconsin Carry gun rights’ group disagrees. He tells the Journal Sentinel that leaving a gun in a restroom goes against the fundamental principle of maintaining control of a weapon at all times. Clark also said it’s why children should be trained about guns, so they’ll know how to respond if they encounter one.”

  7. ” Clark also said it’s why children should be trained about guns, so they’ll know how to respond if they encounter one.”

    Someone should tell Mr. Clark (apparently he’s too stupid or lazy to look it up for himself) that millions of children in Europe have NO idea what a gun looks like (aside from seeing movies and tv) and yet almost none of them get killed by gunz.

    • Jim 'Prup' Benton

      Being pedantic — but you know me well. I agree with the Duke of Clay completely, but your comment, not so much. As far as I know — correct me if I’m wrong — the EU has not banned toy guns, even realistic looking ones.

      • Well, REAL guns haven’t been banned in the EU either. I mean, if you’re being pedantic … But Europe doesn’t have American gun culture, either. Guns aren’t seen as an extension of your identity and Europeans aren’t fed a constant diet of Faux News Fearporn about scary black people coming to steal your stuff.

  8. Jim 'Prup' Benton

    Beale:
    This is technically a response to your comment to me just above, but because it starts two new, if related topics, I’m breaking it into two parts and putting them up as new ‘sub-thread’ threads. My initial comment was nothing but my occasional pedantic showing off, and maybe I wouldn’t have even posted it if it were not in response to an old friend I’ve known even longer than you, going back to when Steve Benen was ‘The Carpetbagger.”

    But your response got me thinking about a couple of things, the ‘gun culture,’ the responsibility for it of FOX News, and the whole question about ‘Fearporn.’ And I have to say some things, and be a little critical — if that isn’t too strong a word — of your response. You’ve done something which all of us have done many times — like masturbating, 90% admit it and the other 10% are lying, to themselves or others. In fact, I do it so often I think some people are surprised when I can keep on track and not get distracted by my own hobby horses, as I think you have done here.

    Yes, I have no question that FOX is one of the most authentically evil influences in the history of America, surpassing even Bertie McCormick and Hearst among ‘media moguls’ simply because they are both into more different forms of media, and because they are far more likely to let down the barriers so the really scummy types on the right can have a ‘mainstream’ audience. I feel anyone commenting about FOX needs to have a copy of Hitler’s description of the ‘Big Lie technique’ posted above his computer. (And I am not just saying that for effect. I think people tend to think they know what the term means without understanding it — and why it was, and why it is, so effective. There’s a good, readable translation in Wikipedia that you all should actually read.)

    And FOX is taking an evil technique and using it irresponsibly — which is a funny way of putting it, but all I am trying to say is that when Hitler and Goebbles used it, it was with a definite end in mind, while I do not think FOX is ‘scheming to bring fascism to America’ or whatever. They are using it to get influence, power over some Congressmen in some areas, and mostly to gain ratings. (There was a pretty solidly based story that Murdoch himself was really hoping Obama would win in 2008 — and I won’t try and figure whether his motives were venal, greedy, or simply making sure he was powerful enough that his own company would be immune from being investigated. (Like most of Murdoch’s ideas, this one was wrong too.)) But I don’t think they have — or have even thought of — a long-term goal.

    That having been said, still, blaming FOX for the gun culture is, sadly, very similar to people who try and argue that teenagers would never think of having sex if it weren’t for rock and roll, or ‘wardrobe malfunctions’ or ‘smutty lyrics’ or movies that showed nudity as openly as they showed corpses. It’s the same type of argument as those people who say that no one would ever be gay if it weren’t for Stonewall, or ‘recruitment by gay activists.’ (Wish my mothers were alive so they could hear how they couldn’t have existed in the 1949s — before, by this argument, homosexuality was ‘invented,’ or that they could never have raised a child, peacefully, in the middle of the “Ozzie and Harriet land” of suburban Jersey in the 50s.)

    In fact, it is the same argument that holds that blacks would have remained happy and content in segregation if it weren’t for those damned outside agitators. (If there isn’t a standard fallacy called the ‘outside agitator fallacy’ there should be.)

    America has had a ‘love affair with guns’ and a ‘gun culture’ dating far before FOX, before even the Dumont Network, before even the existence of the USA — and for good reason. The people who ‘settled’ the land needed guns for defense — and sadly sometimes for offense — and for obtaining their food. And children — mostly boys — were playing with toy guns long before Huck helped Jim to escape, before Washington began surveying. (And even now, they still will ‘shoot’ with their fingers if they have nothing else.)

    Yes, FOX is to blame for allowing the true gun nuts, the 2nd Amendment absolutists, the Larry Pratts, a ‘mainstream audience.’ They deserve condemnation because they have allowed their voices to so polarize the discussion that — even though the overwhelming majority of NRA members support reasonable restrictions — no one will stand up to leaders who are going against their members. And to so polarize it that our side can’t even calm down enough to see if there would be some area where we could work with the actual responsible gun owners — they do exist, despite the sarcasm — to begin to silence the true crazies.

    (Or we can simply talk about idealistic, impractical suggestions that were never realistically able to pass, and make the blogosphere even more ‘sports talk radio’ (And there goes my own hobby horse galloping by.))

    They are wrong in many areas, they have made a dangerous situation far worse — the gun culture that was excusable in the 18th and 19th centuries, or even in the first half of the last one, is now a scary anachronism.

    But ‘blaming them’ for creating, or even strengthening America’s gun culture, well, there go those outside agitators again.

    Now that I’ve riled you up already, let’s take a separate comment to discuss the more interesting (to me, at least) topic of ‘Fearporn.’

  9. Jim 'Prup' Benton

    Fearporn.

    Beale, I don’t know how old you are, but I’m 68, born in 1946, which means that, practically since I was conscious I have been inundated with fearporn from both sides. And unlike the above, where I have argued that it was the ‘same old same old,’ this something unique in American history.

    Not that there hasn’t always been a streak of paranoia in American politics — but it would be going even further off topic to try and analyze why. After all, the first book detailing the ‘dangerous, mystical, powerful and conspiratorial’ nature of the Bavarian Illuminati — and the first book debunking it — were published during the Jefferson-Adams conflict in 1800. And America has had two parties — both arising during s time of unsettled partisan politics and capable of becoming major parties — devoted to protecting America from conspiratorial alien threats, the anti-Masons and the American (Know Nothing) Party that was devoted to anti-Catholicism and anti-alien anti-immigrant bigotry. (It is fascinating to see how similar the arguments were over a span of 150 years, but the FAIR group and other Tantonists are lying nothing that has not been lied many times before.) And there are many other examples I am keeping myself from listing.

    But my lifetime has been, I believe, unique in the level, variety, and type of fearporn that everyone has been hit by. And not just the bigotries, the scary black folks coming for our property, the scary gays coming for our kids, the scary right wingers coming for our democracy, the scary preachers who are going to turn into Nehemiah Scudders.. (And if there is more truth to the last two than the others, it still is fearporn to see them as imminent threats. And I will always argue that one reason for Vietnam was LBJ’s fear — remember, he was in the Senate at the same time that Tail Gunner Joe was there — that if he didn’t act, he would inspire a new McCarthy, riding ‘who lost Vietnam’ the way the original one rode ‘who lost China.’ And remember also that, even before the Wheeling speech, McCarthy, already known as being corrupt, someone who lied blatantly to get his seat, and an incurable drunk, was considered the second worst Senator — only because the incredible Theodore Bilbo was still in the Senate.)

    But the fearporn I am talking about was unique, a serious belief that has run consistently since my birth, that in any of several very credible ways, humanity, or at least human civilization, would destroy itself in our lifetimes.

    And the fear and the paranoia came at us from both sides. It wasn’t just, or even mostly, the right that was expecting an Atomic WWIII. We Progressives were just as eager to see the latest edition of the Bulletin of the Atomic Scientists to see where the Doomsday Clock on the cover was pointing. Was it five minutes to midnight — which meant calm and hope, comparatively? Or was it pointing at 1 minute to 12, and we should really begin to shudder?

    (It got so bad that I was hardly the only person who was almost convinced there was a possibility that Nixon would start a nuclear war just to avoid impeachment and who had many anxious moments those last few days.)

    And it was the Left far more than the right that had (justifiable) nightmares about nuclear meltdowns — or, if we abandoned nuclear power, about fossil fuel pollution and global warming.

    Meanwhile the right has its “End Time Scenarios” — far less realistic or dangerous unless someone takes steps to bring them about. And even those who are not that sure about the end of the world or the rapture, or the second coming being imminent, see the spread of what they see as ‘Satanic immorality’ leading to an end to what they see as Western Judaeo-Christian Civilization. (Are these fears stupid and ridiculous? Certainly. Are many of the leaders using fear and lies as a way to manipulate people to gain power. Again certainly. But just as certainly, the followers of those leaders are utterly sincere in believing them and believing in the fears they have been taught to have.)

    Paranoia is endemic across the spectrum. “It starts when your always afraid. Step out of line, the man comes and takes you away.” That wasn’t written by a right-winger. And all of us tend to see our side as fractured, disorganized, factional, and bumblingly, stupidly self-defeating. Which is, more often than not, quite accurate — with the stupidity far higher on the right, yes. But the dangerous idea is not seeing the other side as just as messed up as we are, but rather seeing it as being controlled by ‘comic book villains coordinating an army of mindless puppets.’

    Hey guys, Karl Rove, Dick Cheney, Brian Fisher, Joseph Farah and Rupert Murdoch share a lot of qualities, but can we remember that one of them is stupidity. Look at their records, and you’ll see an incredible series of failures and blunders. Rove’s candidates lose, Murdoch’s papers lose money, and, as it happens, in almost every case where we have challenged a TeaParty fool with a serious opponent, we’ve won.

    The trick is to recognize that the dangers we fear are real, but not inevitable, to remain optimistic — if only because if we are doomed, fighting is a good way to occupy our time until the end — and to “Not let them scare you.”

    Or else we’ll be like I was in grammar school, always ready to grab my ‘sit-upon’ and crawl under the desk, waiting for the all-clear to sound, and wondering if this is the day it won’t. .

    • I’m with Democommie on this one. Of course fear has been around forever, I mean cripes it’s the basis of religion (be good or you’ll spend eternity in the fiery pits of hell). But RWers have perfected the art of using fear strategically and purposefully to manipulate the public and achieve their goals. Willie Horton, anyone? And, since 9/11, they’ve used their microphone (the Faux Noise Machine) to spread fear pretty much nonstop.

      As for what the Fox News goal is, that’s simple: to further the Republican Party agenda. And that is whatever serves the plutocrats: dismantle unions, lower taxes, get rid of regulations and oversight, etc.

      That’s basically why Fox News was created in the first place. Roger Ailes has said as much.

  10. jIM:

    I’m almost 65 (Oct. 25 and yes, I’m accepting gifts!) and while you’re corredt that FuckTheNew’sCorpse didn’t create “gun culture” they use it, cynically, to gain ratings share. They also have a stable of the unstable to help them spread the meme that MurKKKa is dying from queeratheomuslimness.

    There is not now, nor has there ever been ANYTHING equivalent on the left–to FOX, the Tea Party or the religious reich.

    Oswego County and the rest of Central/Upstate NY has it’s share of KKKrazzeepantsmofos but they pale in comparison to the former states of the Confederacy and places like Ohio, Oregon, Utah and Nevada.

    The effect of leftwing activists on government policy is negligible–if only that were true of the Reichwinng.

  11. So what does the “Prup” stand for?

    • Jim 'Prup' Benton

      Despite my frequently proclaimed daily use of marijuana for over 45 years — except for a few brief periods when I was just too broke or between suppliers — “Prup” has nothing to do with ‘purp’ — and I prefer Diesel or Hawaiian anyway.

      It is an acronym from my favorite Gilbert & Sullivan line of all. (Gilbert & Sullivan? ask your grandparents, or maybe your school dramatic society has done THE MIKADO or THE PIRATES OF PENZANCE recently.) I used it as the opening to my college radio program in 1965, and the whole line goes…

      “This Particularly Rapid Unintelligible Patter
      Isn’t generally heard and, if it is, it doesn’t matter.”
      (Because of your problems with reading comprehension, I capitalized the words of the acronym.)

  12. And not just the bigotries, the scary black folks coming for our property, the scary gays coming for our kids, the scary right wingers coming for our democracy, the scary preachers who are going to turn into Nehemiah Scudders..

    Fear porn my ass. That’s a new development old-timer. What are you afraid of anyway? You’re fucking nuts and deluded at the same time. You can always keep your property until someone steals it. Or else you lose it due to your own lack of diligence.

    Fuck you! And what democommie said.

  13. Flying Junior:

    As intemperate as I’m prone to be, Mr. Benton is not someone I would attack, he’s a good man and while we disagree on some stuff he’s in the right on most of the stuff he’s posted about.

    • Jim 'Prup' Benton

      Thank you, old friend, for the kind words. And thank you for letting me know Flying Junior was attacking me.

      No, that’s unfair. I could tell THAT he was attacking me, I just couldn’t figure out what it was he thought I had said, why he was upset at it, or what he was trying to say in response. And, to be perfectly honest, I thought it was worth taking advantage of my advanced state of decrepitude to beg out of the task of trying to figure it out, since it didn’t seem to be worth the time or mental strain.

      As for your comments to me, they are always worth discussing — ain’t YOU lucky, as are the suppliers of Beale’s bandwidth. As usual, we are closer than we sound, and I vey much appreciate you bringing out one important difference between the ‘two sides’ — always an over-simplification in itself.

      Both sides tend towards paranoia — as I was trying to argue, given the atmosphere of the country during our lifetimes (and, in reality, at no other time) and the very real dangers we face and have faced, it is pretty hard not to be touched by it. But only the right have people deliberately trying to create and use it, and only the right continually uses the ‘big lie’ technique. Maybe this is because those on the right are much more lacking in critical skills and therefore are much more gullible and attractive to the hustlers of all kinds that have attached themselves to their causes. (Political and religious hustlers mostly, who are doing quite a good job of milking the flock, but also quackery hustlers, gold hustlers, even flying saucer hustlers, all setting up their ‘tripes and keister’ and waiting for the crowd to give them money.)

      I never was implying a false equivalency, except in areas like that, and in one important one — maybe an offshoot of the paranoia. Each side, accurately, sees its own side as fragmented, confused, composed of many groups only barely held together by some common bond but capable of being at each other’s throats at a moments misspeaking, leaderless but with competing people grabbing for the crown, etc. At the same time, both sides — as inaccurate as the first perception was accurate — sees the other side as a unified, manipulated, solidified army controlled by different ‘comic book villains’ who control all the aspects of the other side in various guises with their brilliance and ruthless conniving.

      (In fact, the other side does have people trying to pretend to be the ‘comic book villains’ trying sometimes to BE the comic book villains — as our side doesn’t. But they usually are pretty hapless, frequently very stupid — remember, many of them are businessmen who may know their own field, but are notoriously stupid outside it — and there are so many of them with contrasting aims that they stand little chance of success unless they scare us into immobility or retreat to our ‘salons.’ Even the Kochs — who are really as much religious hustlers as political ones, though they manage to be both — haven’t achieved much when we were able to use light as a disinfectant.)

      What I am trying to say in all of this is to not overestimate the other side, and not to assume that everyone who takes a position on their side is permanently attached to the side. (So often they have another weakness with which they can be pried away into sanity. The woman who stays Republican until she discovers their record on VAWA, the homophobe who finds that he knows a gay and that even if he still thinks the gay is hell-bound, he isn’t the mysterious ‘agent of the gay agenda’ that the Fishers, the NOMs and the Jody Hices claim.)

      And most of all, I’m trying to get us to realize that they are all just people, on both sides, confused, self-contradictory, not always sure why they believe what they believe — and yes, we too can fit that description, friend. If we deal with them, try and reach them as and by individuals, and have patience, we’ll fail 90% of the time. But gee, a 10% boost in our votes ain’t that bad.

    • I don’t mean to speak for Flying Junior but I am thinking he has possibly mistaken Jim Benton for Jim From Memphis, the latter being an irritating troll?

  14. One thing I didn’t notice in the account: revocation of their concealed carry permits. A permit to carry concealed is supposed to mean the permittee can be trusted to handle the weapon in a responsible manner.

    Leaving it behind is a sign that the trust is no longer warranted.

    • Since the case was reopened I would hope that is one thing they are looking at. The couple did have permits, according to one news report I read which actually asked that question.

  15. Jim,

    As usual, the sarcasm escaped me.

    There goes my reputation, again!

    Please forgive me.

    FJ

  16. Jim:

    I am notably short tempered and horribly ill mannered with trolls of all stripes. I’ve never seen a case where being any other way worked.

    Otoh, I know lots of hunters and “sport” shooters who often assume that my stance is anti-gun when it’s not. My stance is anti-clueless assholes with gunz. And as stories like the one that was the subject of Southern Beale’s OP continue to be aired, many of them shake their heads and go, “WTF is the matter with those idiots?”.

    Flying Junior:

    Speaking as someone who has never made a mistake*, I will say that you had a much better recovery than I would have made.

    * Not intended to be a factual statement

    • Jim 'Prup' Benton

      [It's fun to get a chance to dig through some favorite music as I type. An eclectic mess, er, group, including some swing, some great Pakistani music -- Pakistan might have produced more good rock in the 90s than the US did -- all folded around some of the best cuts from Arthur Lee and Love's FOREVER CHANGES. (I wonder how Junior will feel if he discovers THAT masterpiece. And I'll stop doing the 'old man shtick' but I do feel sorry for people who weren't around to experience music in the Sixties. It isn't that there hasn't been a lot of great music since, but back then it was all new, everybody was going where 'no band had gone before' and if some of the tries are better forgotten there was a lot of important innovation it seemed like every week. The musicians really were part of the community -- "Bob Dylan, that was that kid from Minnesota who kept playing his harmonica while the rest of us were trying to concentrate on chess' an ex girl friend's memory. And it was so cheap, you didn't have to save up for a month to see a big name from seats that barely let you see what instrument she was playing. I think the Fillmore East cost five bucks for three acts that combined well-known with worth knowing -- and I saw THE WHO livem with a (pretty bad) opening act, outdoors in Central Park, with the show starting at 11:00. It cost $1.50 if you wanted a seat, $1 if you say on the ground, and if you didn't care about seeing the groups, you could sit outside and hear for free.]

      Sorry, those damn hobby horses. Anyway, about trolls and the like, of course you can’t convince or change trolls, But if you answer them — okay, maybe I think this way because I started out in the Skeptical blogosphere — you have a chance of reaching two groups. One are the lurkers who might simply not know enough to see through the troll’s argument, and might have been leaning in the same way. (Note, make a memo to yourselves to remind you that “Ignorance and Stupidity are Two Different Things.”)

      More important, I’m trying to give some of you arguments, maybe different arguments from new vantage points, that you can use on that crazy uncle or the guy in the carpool. Again, you are talking to him, but your audience are the listeners,

      (Oh, okay, and at least 20% is enjoying showing off my collection of odd and miscellaneous facts and historical comparisons. But another thing to remember. the odds are that the hearer has heard most of standard arguments already and has his replies as down pat as you have the arguments. But if you hit him from a different and unexpected and unprepared for angle, you might just shake up his certainties enough that he is reachable. (Again, the odds are he won’t be, but ten percent, even one percent of people questioning their assumptions — and later questioning those who gave them the assumptions — is worth the effort.

      • I do not answer trolls. I do not find it productive. They are here to disrupt not to debate. Their goal is to create a toxic environment that drives people away from a site. They feed on the attention and when ignored move on. I would prefer people ignore the few true trolls I have.

        Pakistani rock? Seriously? Never heard any. If you have any YouTube links to some bands you enjoy I’d like to give it a listen.

  17. This weekend, we set the Wayback Machine for The Lovin’ Spoonful.

    *Youtube Mix

  18. Jim 'Prup' Benton

    Oh, my. Music and politics. Yum, yum, yum!
    First, to Junior. Yep, the Spoonful — and the rest of the ‘Creeque Alley’ group, The Mamas and the Papas and The Byrds are always worth it — I had some Byrds in my mix last might as well.. But this weekend, try the FOREVER CHANGES album by LOVE — anyone who has Amazon Prime can get it, remastered and expanded, for free — same with THE BYRDS’ GREATEST HITS, and the whole album is also on YouTube. Fill up the vape — preferably a heavy sativa hybrid –, find a good pair of ears to share it with, and enjoy. (It was an exaggeration — but not a great one — when it was being called “America’s Sergeant Pepper.”)

    Now Beale, on trolls, your argument makes sense, except that trolls are good at what they do, and if you ignore them and everybody else tries to, they’ll eventually hit somebody’s buttons and that person ‘won’t be able to resist replying.’ You are right that they want to disrupt and distract the discussion — I don’t think I’d agree they are trying to make the site unpleasant, that’s a little too Machiavellian for such little minds. But if we reply to them, keep them on target, challenge them if they try and change the subject, and use them to make our points for us, they become useful — and sooner or later they crawl away. (But again, my view is skewed by my history with the Skeptical blogosphere, which probably attracts more ‘lurkers’ than most. The trolls are always heavy there, making the same arguments, but giving the bloggers and the sensible commenters a chance to show how idiotic they are — the anti-vaxers may be the worst, but we got all kinds. And we knew they would be unaffected by our refutations, but that there were curious people out there, maybe tending to agree with them at first, who can be shown how wrong they are and that we could get over to the ‘side of light.’

    The Pakistani music takes a separate post — and when I told my wife I was going to be writing on it, she basically shrugged and said ‘see you for dinner then.’

    • Trolls don’t care about discussion. They are quite literally trained to distract and make a site toxic. You DO know that conservative groups train and pay people to do this, right? Certainly not all trolls are on the payroll, some are just assholes, but quite a few are. I’d prefer people do their troll engagement elsewhere. That’s just my preference, not a hard rule, as Democommie well knows.

  19. Jim 'Prup' Benton

    The trouble with listing YouTube songs is that there are so many of them. (I think your spam filter would have an orgasm if I put all the cites I want to.)

    I will start with a couple of actual cites — which I’ll probably mess up, but hopefully you can get them right, And the one you have to start with is
    Mr. Fraudiye by AWAZ. (Warning, most of these are in Urdu — no, I don’t speak it — and thus all I can recommend is the music but this one the meaning — and the video — is perfectly clear, and could be the theme song for Romney and half the Republican Governors.

    The second recommend is a pain to find — I actually had people scouring Pakistan for copies of the CD or a new copy of the tape I’d stretched out from over playing. (I eventually found it listed as ‘bhangra’ — very wrong — on iTunes. Now I see it is available on Amazon as well for 8.99, but start by spending the 99 cents to get and listen to “Hina” by NIGHT CREATURES. Then you’ll get the full album. I think there is some way of finding it on YouTube, but in a weird listing that I can’t remember now.

    The next are all on You Tube, cuts from US RAH PAR by Junaid Jamshed. Jamshed was the co-founder of VITAL SIGNS, the first real Paki group, along with Salman Ahmed, who split to form JUNOON — sometimes called Pakistan’s U2 because of their strong politics. The album was a special project of Jamshed’s, has almost everybody in Pakistani music at the time, and has the first reunion with Salman since the split in “Jaagi Re” (Make sure you put in both the album name and Junaid Jamshed” in that order, and pick songs that say they come from the album. The other stuff is also pretty good, the pop stuff, but Junaid was always split between music and religion, and many of his albums came after he finally chose religion. Nice religious music, but not Paki Pop. (Also, any of the cuts under VITAL SIGNS are worth knowing, though the 2nd album is the weakest.)

    JUNOON has its own playlists — and a recording from when they played the UN General Assembly Hall Live in 2001. Start with their signature “Sayonee” (when I saw them live in Prospect Park — Salman went to HS in Brooklyn and his bass player was a non-desi Brooklynite named Brian O’Connell — I was on my feet with the first notes of “Sayonee” and couldn’t even sit down during a brief rain delay. Those WERE the days, when I had legs that worked. But try others, they have a harder sound than the other groups I’ve mentioned so far — one reason for the Salman/Junaid split.

    I have a LOT more, and a comment on the one you made to me — yes, I do know conservatives pay trolls, but I still think they can be used — again, to bounce off. But so far, I’ve run into few here, and eah one, as always, is different.

    I’ll talk about a lot more groups and artists later, but it is cat breakfast time, followed by a nap and some time with the other member of the family, but be back later. (A few quick names: Shehzad Roy, Saleem Javed, STRINGS, Ali Haider, AAROH — and that’s just for starters. Pakistan is a BIG country and they produced a LOT of music those years.)

    • “I’ll talk about a lot more groups and artists later, but it is cat breakfast time,”

      Just how many cats does it take to make a decent breakfast? {;>)

      Did you hear the report on NPR a few weeks back about the Afghan musician who was killed by one or the other dictator’s thugs during the period prior to our going there in 2002?

      • Jim 'Prup' Benton

        My cats were NOT amused — and they do tend to look over my shoulder as I type. (They understand spoken English better, but Quint (the Quintessential Cat) is doing a good job with the written and teaching the others.)

        Just a quick look in, probably won’t finish the Pakistani piece until later tonight. Let me know what you think of any of the pieces you check, I’m curious to hear them through someone else’s ears as well as my own,

  20. Jim 'Prup' Benton

    And now to spend some time on Pakistani music — politics I can talk about every day, it’s rare I can get someone to sit down while I rant and rave about this minor obsession. And let me start with a name, and a gigantic ‘thank you.” I haven’t been keeping up much recently, figuring the political conditions were such that music was not getting out the way it did during Musharraf’s regime. (That was one reason why a lot of Pakistanis kept respect for him when we in the West didn’t. He was very pro-openness in areas such as music, while previous administrations had severely censored or gone after the more political groups. “Mr. Fraudiyae never got much open air play before Musharraf.

    Anyway, this brings me to AAMIR ZAKI (as with that particular Urdu letter, the transliteration is sometimes given as simply Amir Zaki. Same guy.)
    Zaki is considered Pakistan’s greatest guitar — and also one of its biggest pains in the ass at times. He’s the sort who released a wonderful album in the mid nineties, then, for the next fifteen years there kept being rumors of a new album, then a story that he had decided he was disgusted with what he’d done and was starting over yet again. By the time I lost touch, I’d just about given up on seeing new material — he was producing and doing session work, but nothing of his own. But I figured I’d have to list some of the magnificent stuff from that first album.

    And I will, and some new stuff, even some in English. Dunno wha hoppen, but he’s apparently put together a new group, and released new material. this is as new to me as it is to you, but …
    No, let’s start with one of the classics, Mera Pyar. This may be his signature tune, and really shows off his guitar work. (There’s also an interesting live version but the sound quality could be better, and Zaki’s voice is weaker than before. Still, his solo break, followed by a keyboard piece by Emu — of FUSON, another major new group — is worth hearing.) And apparently that second solo album did get out — now if I can only find it. It’s called TEN YEARS ECLIPSE.

    The second piece from SIGNATURE — the first album — is a pure instrumental, You Need That Fire. Don’t need words either, just listen is enough for me to say. (Wonder if Clapton and Zaki could ever work together. And when I asked that, I hadn’t heard Zaki on a VERY familiar song from the CREAM days.)

    I give up, if I keep wandering through the Zaki section, I’ll never get anywhere else. In fact, the computer has been having over-heating problems, so may have to continue this in the morning with some of the groups I’ve already mentioned. But oh, my, this is giving me as much new music as I may be giving you.